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fighting traffic ticket (no right turn sign)
On Lawyer & Legal » Traffic Law
19,814 words with 7 Comments; publish: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 06:12:00 GMT; (80093.75, « »)
Just a couple points.
Failure to notice posted trafic signs is being a careless driver.
This sign was a NO Right Turn (between the hours of x-y), but what if it was
a stop sign?
You failed to obey a posted traffic sign. What makes it worse, is you can
make this turn during the daylight hours, where the visibility is high, and
doing so regularly should have noticed the sign. That does not excuse you
failing to see or obey the sign at night, but kinda nukes your ignorance
plea. Oh, you do know that ignorance is not a legal defence.
The fact that you were pulled over and charged, does not mean that the cop
posted can watch and catch every vehicle that makes the illegal turn. The
cop was busy with you, so it was the Cube VAn driver's lucky day. What you
are confusing here are laws that must treat everybody the same, not
enforcement of those laws. Say this law excluded Cube Vans, and only applied
to cars, then you could argue you were not being tr4ated equally under the
law. But a cop catch you and letting another law breaker go has nothing to
do with a law treating you differently. Remember Traffic offenses are not
crimes. It's not like the cube van was a danger to society.
The right to equality was applied. You got charged the same as everyone else
who got charged.
Cops can't catch and stop everybody. Do you think you can get off a murder
charge because someone gets away with it, and if the cops didn't charge
them, then why should you be charged? It's nonsense. You won't find any
precident - they don't exist. You are confused about the meaning of laws
being equally applied. Were you treated any differently that anyone else
that was charged with making an illegal right turn? No!
When people are not charged there is no law applied. You think one bank
robber can get off their charges, because one of them got away, and escaped
charges? Well you have to think that, because the same arguement is the one
you want to use, and it's not a defence.
The ticket you can fight is the failure to produce insuance.
You can prove you were insured when charged, you re-organized your car, and
under the pressure of a peace officer you could not find it on demand. But
you were insured and can prove it. Most cops will give you 48 hours to
produce it at a cop shop, so they have discrecion. I am sure a judge will
blow off the charges if you can prove you were insured at the time, and your
insuance company can prove it for you in writing. But if you want to go with
the, I didn't read the sign ever, didn't obey it because of habit, you might
get the charges raised to careless driving. And what the other guy does or
doesn't do has no bearing on what you do. You broke the by-law, you get
charged. What the cop did or didn't do regarding another offender doesn't
change your guilt or the otehr guys guilt.
You have no idea why the cop did not catch and charge the other driver.
Maybe he didn't actually witness the Van make the turn because he was
occupied with you? Maybe he did, but was occupied with you. Even after he
let you go, he still may have been occupied with your paper work and his
reports.
Sounds like you are just plain guilty, lack remorse and should pay the fine
and take the points.
I can tell you that you idea about a legal defence is about as wrong as your
right turn. You are going to make an *** of yourself in court, piss off the
judge and get convicted.
You want to get off, look for a technical way out, like an error in the
ticket, because on the facts, you are done, and I haven't even heard the
cops side of the story. But the judge will!
"tddytgrr" <tddytgrr.trafficlaw.itags.org.rogers.com> wrote in message
news:gyHXa.103259$rsJ.6400.trafficlaw.itags.org.news04.bloor.is.net.cab le.rogers.com... Hi all, I am going to fight a traffic ticket later this month and wonder if
someone in the know can offer me some knowledge/opinions/pointers etc. What happened is that I made a right turn into a small street (that
enters into 2-way street) has a "No Right Turn" sign which I didn't see. Anyway, what I am hoping to argue is that I was ticketed but the guy that later came right in
behind me (a big cube van) didn't get ticketed. He (the cube van) made the same right turn and drove right through. The officer that ticketed me just sat right there in his
car and watched. I think he had all the time in the world to ticket the
other motorist coming in after me. So technically it's not treating everyone in the same equal way. I
thought equality was guaranteed or at least attempted. I had saw this because I
was kinda fumbling around to put away all the papers so I didn't drive off right away. I tooked out
a lot of paper trying to look for my insurance paper, normally I had it in
the glove compartments but that day I washed the car and did inside vaccuum and stuffs so things were out of place. By the way I also got another ticket for not showing
the insurance paper, I found it the next day along with other papers in the trunk where I had moved it. So I have two tickets, one of which I don't really think is fair because another motorist also made the same turn and didn't get ticketed for it. By the way this "No right turn sign" is one of those thing that only
appears at night. I had made the right turn through this intersection all the time but only during the day . So it never appeared and I never saw
it. That one time I made the turn at night and through habits and absentmindedness didn't bother to look the signs. Also this is not a 4 way street. This is a little street that enters
into a big street (Bloor Street). In other words it enters into Bloor Street like a letter T. -------------------------- BLOOR --------------------------- | | | St. Paul Square By the way, the original date was in June of this year. I showed up to fight the ticket which was scheduled at 10am and waited and waited. By past 1:00pm there was two persons left myself and this other guy so his honour ran out of time and said to the administrative people that he has no more time and that he can only take one more person, one or the other. There was a few minutes of silence and he proposed that he must delay my ticket case till August. So I agreed to it. Now I have
to say here that I know little about their rights and the proceedings so i had accepted the postponement. So now the fight is for later this August, and I want to come prepared this time. I think there is a slight chance that I can argue because he let the cube van through the same intersection that I might be offered the same rights. Has anyone used this argument before and got your
ticket waived? I plan to drop by the University of Toronto Law library to do some research but I need to narrow down what to look for. I think
if i can find similar cases where the rights to equality is presented it would be a lot of help. Any pointers, hints, help is truly appreciated. I am including a picture I took of the intersection for your information.
I took a digital camera and came back to the place to study it. As you can see, the sign is absent during the day time. Its that little square metal piece board attacked to the poles. At night, it magically turns into a no right turn signs. Thanks in advance.
http://trafficlaw.itags.org/q_traffic-law_156604.html
All Comments
Leave a comment...
- 7 Comments
- Do I have a chance to win if the following
1. the copy wrote the ticket at 6:40 pm but the sign said no right turn between 4:00 pm and 5:00 pm.
2. the sign is not very visible.
Thanks
#1; Sat, 29 Jul 2006 15:35:00 GMT
- robin wrote in message ...
IT's been interested reading the responses.Seems to me that a sign that is one thing during the day and another atnight is a bad idea. I sure *hope* there are no signs like that.
There are signs liek that all over the world -- "No Parking 07:30-09:30,
15:30-17:30, Non-Fri", "No Left (Right) Turn" 07:30-17:30", "No Parking
08:00-15:00, Mon-Fri, Sept-Jun", and so on.
IF there are, I will have to be a lot more alert in driving.
Alernetness never hurt anyone re driving.
That is, unless it's a sign that refers to time-limited restrictions,
inwhich case, yeah, the guy was just unobservant. From what he said,
though,sounds like the former. And here I thought the highway design and
signagein BC were the worst in Canada!
I think the fact he knew it was allowed or not depending on the time,
but that some people ignored it anyway, indicates he knew the time
restriction and ignored it.
#2; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:52:00 GMT
- You have here admitted fault, you will be convicted and pay the fine , the
best you could get is a reduced fine, if the sign was not visible/obstructed
at the time and you can prove it,you have a case.
The cop not ticketing the other guy means nothing to the judge.. an offence
is an offence ... just think about that argument if you shot someone and
someone else shot someone and they caught you and not the next guy, do you
think that argument would stand up.
If you really are set on fighting this call one of the ticket fighters ,
they will set you straight on what you will and will not win.
Dave.
MAJOR DELET
#3; Tue, 05 Aug 2003 08:07:00 GMT
- "fly mx" <yeah.trafficlaw.itags.org.right.com> wrote in message
news:vivi20af5sea3d.trafficlaw.itags.org.corp.supernews.com...
: You have here admitted fault, you will be convicted and pay the fine ,
the
: best you could get is a reduced fine, if the sign was not
visible/obstructed
: at the time and you can prove it,you have a case.
: The cop not ticketing the other guy means nothing to the judge.. an
offence
: is an offence ... just think about that argument if you shot someone and
: someone else shot someone and they caught you and not the next guy, do
you
: think that argument would stand up.
: If you really are set on fighting this call one of the ticket fighters ,
: they will set you straight on what you will and will not win.
: Dave.
:
: MAJOR DELET
IT's been interested reading the responses.
Seems to me that a sign that is one thing during the day and another at
night is a bad idea. I sure *hope* there are no signs like that. IF there
are, I will have to be a lot more alert in driving.
That is, unless it's a sign that refers to time-limited restrictions, in
which case, yeah, the guy was just unobservant. From what he said, though,
sounds like the former. And here I thought the highway design and signage
in BC were the worst in Canada!
#4; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:26:00 GMT
- Do they still accept a plea of guilty with an explanation, in traffic court? I think that's your only chance, guy ..
"Defender of Enormous Manhood" <spam.trafficlaw.itags.org.hormel.com> wrote in message news:13OXa.87439$hOa.14289.trafficlaw.itags.org.news02.bloor.is.net.cab le.rogers.com... Just a couple points. Failure to notice posted trafic signs is being a careless driver. This sign was a NO Right Turn (between the hours of x-y), but what if it was a stop sign? You failed to obey a posted traffic sign. What makes it worse, is you can make this turn during the daylight hours, where the visibility is high, and doing so regularly should have noticed the sign. That does not excuse you failing to see or obey the sign at night, but kinda nukes your ignorance plea. Oh, you do know that ignorance is not a legal defence. The fact that you were pulled over and charged, does not mean that the cop posted can watch and catch every vehicle that makes the illegal turn. The cop was busy with you, so it was the Cube VAn driver's lucky day. What you are confusing here are laws that must treat everybody the same, not enforcement of those laws. Say this law excluded Cube Vans, and only applied to cars, then you could argue you were not being tr4ated equally under the law. But a cop catch you and letting another law breaker go has nothing to do with a law treating you differently. Remember Traffic offenses are not crimes. It's not like the cube van was a danger to society. The right to equality was applied. You got charged the same as everyone else who got charged. Cops can't catch and stop everybody. Do you think you can get off a murder charge because someone gets away with it, and if the cops didn't charge them, then why should you be charged? It's nonsense. You won't find any precident - they don't exist. You are confused about the meaning of laws being equally applied. Were you treated any differently that anyone else that was charged with making an illegal right turn? No! When people are not charged there is no law applied. You think one bank robber can get off their charges, because one of them got away, and escaped charges? Well you have to think that, because the same arguement is the one you want to use, and it's not a defence. The ticket you can fight is the failure to produce insuance. You can prove you were insured when charged, you re-organized your car, and under the pressure of a peace officer you could not find it on demand. But you were insured and can prove it. Most cops will give you 48 hours to produce it at a cop shop, so they have discrecion. I am sure a judge will blow off the charges if you can prove you were insured at the time, and your insuance company can prove it for you in writing. But if you want to go with the, I didn't read the sign ever, didn't obey it because of habit, you might get the charges raised to careless driving. And what the other guy does or doesn't do has no bearing on what you do. You broke the by-law, you get charged. What the cop did or didn't do regarding another offender doesn't change your guilt or the otehr guys guilt. You have no idea why the cop did not catch and charge the other driver. Maybe he didn't actually witness the Van make the turn because he was occupied with you? Maybe he did, but was occupied with you. Even after he let you go, he still may have been occupied with your paper work and his reports. Sounds like you are just plain guilty, lack remorse and should pay the fine and take the points. I can tell you that you idea about a legal defence is about as wrong as your right turn. You are going to make an *** of yourself in court, piss off the judge and get convicted. You want to get off, look for a technical way out, like an error in the ticket, because on the facts, you are done, and I haven't even heard the cops side of the story. But the judge will! "tddytgrr" <tddytgrr.trafficlaw.itags.org.rogers.com> wrote in message news:gyHXa.103259$rsJ.6400.trafficlaw.itags.org.news04.bloor.is.net.cab le.rogers.com... Hi all, I am going to fight a traffic ticket later this month and wonder if someone in the know can offer me some knowledge/opinions/pointers etc. What happened is that I made a right turn into a small street (that enters into 2-way street) has a "No Right Turn" sign which I didn't see. Anyway, what I am hoping to argue is that I was ticketed but the guy that later came right in behind me (a big cube van) didn't get ticketed. He (the cube van) made the same right turn and drove right through. The officer that ticketed me just sat right there in his car and watched. I think he had all the time in the world to ticket the other motorist coming in after me. So technically it's not treating everyone in the same equal way. I thought equality was guaranteed or at least attempted. I had saw this because I was kinda fumbling around to put away all the papers so I didn't drive off right away. I tooked out a lot of paper trying to look for my insurance paper, normally I had it in the glove compartments but that day I washed the car and did inside vaccuum and stuffs so things were out of place. By the way I also got another ticket for not showing the insurance paper, I found it the next day along with other papers in the trunk where I had moved it. So I have two tickets, one of which I don't really think is fair because another motorist also made the same turn and didn't get ticketed for it. By the way this "No right turn sign" is one of those thing that only appears at night. I had made the right turn through this intersection all the time but only during the day . So it never appeared and I never saw it. That one time I made the turn at night and through habits and absentmindedness didn't bother to look the signs. Also this is not a 4 way street. This is a little street that enters into a big street (Bloor Street). In other words it enters into Bloor Street like a letter T. -------------------------- BLOOR --------------------------- | | | St. Paul Square By the way, the original date was in June of this year. I showed up to fight the ticket which was scheduled at 10am and waited and waited. By past 1:00pm there was two persons left myself and this other guy so his honour ran out of time and said to the administrative people that he has no more time and that he can only take one more person, one or the other. There was a few minutes of silence and he proposed that he must delay my ticket case till August. So I agreed to it. Now I have to say here that I know little about their rights and the proceedings so i had accepted the postponement. So now the fight is for later this August, and I want to come prepared this time. I think there is a slight chance that I can argue because he let the cube van through the same intersection that I might be offered the same rights. Has anyone used this argument before and got your ticket waived? I plan to drop by the University of Toronto Law library to do some research but I need to narrow down what to look for. I think if i can find similar cases where the rights to equality is presented it would be a lot of help. Any pointers, hints, help is truly appreciated. I am including a picture I took of the intersection for your information. I took a digital camera and came back to the place to study it. As you can see, the sign is absent during the day time. Its that little square metal piece board attacked to the poles. At night, it magically turns into a no right turn signs. Thanks in advance.
#5; Tue, 05 Aug 2003 07:44:00 GMT
- Could you be a bigger prick? Your either all of 13yrs old / a cop / someone who obviously hasn't been caught or accused wrongly yet. The world is one big happy shiny place in your mind isn't it mr.morality?
Dick... :cool:
<Insert Moralistic I'm Better Than Thou Speech Here>
#6; Thu, 24 Aug 2006 06:08:00 GMT
- A NO RIGHT TURN sign normally indicates that the cross street is one-way the other way.
Such a sign with times on it means that there is some special situation where right turns are hazardous at certain times. Possibilities:
1. The street becomes one-way at certain times of the day (the times listed are rush hour). The right turn would have you driving the wrong way on the street at that time.
I know where three such streets are.
2. If you are in a location where they drive on the left, the sign is there to reduce rush-hour congestion from turns backing up in the right lane.
3. A factory down the block lets out at those times, and entry into that block is prohibited so factory traffic can leave.
4. A very heavy pedestrian movement crosses the right crosswalk at those times.
There are cases which would warrant a look:
- The sign was against the black sky, and high enough that your headlights don't shine on it.
- The sign was aligned with the setting sun.
- The entire purpose of the sign is to raise revenue for the city.
#7; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 10:33:00 GMT